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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
287
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.
How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.
Current @ Lvl V = 0.8
New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765
It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
287
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 12:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:They're both affecting different things though - and the general pattern in EVE skills (that we are trying to adhere to more closely whenever we touch skill bonuses) is that more advanced skills take longer and give lower bonuses. That's why f.ex the advanced weapon skills only give 2%/level - quick to learn, slow to master. I still like the logic of having industry, and then advanced industry skill giving a slightly lower bonus to time efficiency. That makes a lot of sense. I just think the 1% bonus originally proposed per level is laughable.
Cost bonus is ok though, but I'd prefer it to give 2% bonus to manufacture time still. There are already enough things affecting install cost without adding another skill to the equation. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
287
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 14:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I agree with the sentiment expressed here. 1% per level seems like it was just added as an afterthought.
How about Industry gives 3% per level, then advanced industry gives 2% per level.
Current @ Lvl V = 0.8
New @ Lvl V = 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.765
It's a slight buff to production time, and both skills are more worthwhile for a dedicated industrialist.
Anyone have an opinion on this as an option? Feels a little thin to me but it's entirely doable. If it is on the table, then keep Industry at 4%, and then advanced industry could give 3%. I just thought that might be too much of a reduction in manufacture time, as ends up as a possible 0.68x reduction.
I definitely think that would be nice though. Obviously it is not as good as 25% reduction in material costs, so most people are still going to complain whatever you change it too.
CCP Greyscale wrote:[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions? I wouldn't mind this, although 2 % or 3 % TE per level would be fine for me. It makes logical sense to have advanced industry allowing you to specialise from the industry skill. I just don't think it is good to make it 1%, as then the skill isn't worth training. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
287
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 14:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Poison Ivy Rorschach wrote:Stil... I think a refund is a better idea, especially if there's going to be a wait. You'll have the time you said you needed and we would be able to choose our replacement skills (which may be this one if you guys fix it right). I don't buy the value loss to SP since this is already going to lower the value of our characters. Your not getting an SP refund, just as everyone else who has complained in the past about skill changes, some a lot worse than this one, have also not got a SP refund.
The sooner people suck it up and accept that fact then the sooner we can get a reasonable suggestion implanted.
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
288
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Suzuka A1 wrote:Owen Levanth wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Nowhere in the devblog did it say we were going to get a skill taken away without a refund. The skill was changed, not taken away. No refund. When something is drastically altered to the point it no longer resembles its former self it is now something new. Not to mention 'previously' its purpose was to reduce build cost (aka the barrier of entry) and 'now' its purpose is to reduce build time (ideally more isk/hour, which it fails at). There are very few builders in EVE that care about reducing the build time of a 12 hour job when they are going to install the job, go to bed for 8 hours, go to work for 8 hours, and then get home and log in. This new skill would only be relevant if CCP introduced a manufacturing build queue. You must be new here.
2% bonus per level is very nice in my opinion, it is still very useful to anyone decent at industry, and not just 1% of industrialist as you claim. I'm guessing you don't know much about industry.
A 3% bonus would be even better, although would have to be careful that it would not break anything. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
288
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 16:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can we at a minimum get the skill conferring a 2% time bonus per level for the new expansion. Then if numbers need tweaking that could be done at a later time. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
288
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:As long as it gets revisited. It's silly that a skill that was required and useful to everyone is becoming a skill that can only be utilized by a specific group (the most active). Don't be silly. This is the kind of self entitled whining that makes me facepalm. The skill is still useful, it will cut back on the time it makes for you to make an item. That is still completely relevant to anyone who partakes in industry, particularly if as Greyscale suggest, this could be increased to a 2%/3% bonus.
As others have said, a TE bonus is the best way to go with this. Reducing install costs defeats the purpose of the change. People who are arguing for that would probably still like the skill to offer an ME advantage. The whole point is everyone is on a level playing field when it comes to material efficiency, and then your choice is what matters. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
288
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If people are OK with shifting gears, I am totally on board with coming up with a better solution in this thread over the weekend, getting the development time scheduled on Monday and aiming to ship the change by the 29th. I think this would be the best solution, as I don't see how extra time to consider will make much difference to the end solution.
Luscius Uta wrote:I think that changing the skill to give 2% time reduction of all Industry jobs per level would be most fair - it would be less powerful than original skill, while still not being a worthless train from IV to V. I would go with this, or 3% if it is possible.
CCP Greyscale wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:If you are not going to refund skill points you need to replace it with something to make training that last level (4 to 5) worth while. And so far I have not heard of one example change that would be worth while to take to 5, except maybe in absolute extreme cases. Open to suggestions :) I hope you do not go with an install cost reduction, as it defeats the purpose of the change. Either the install cost reduction will be so minimal it has no effect, and therefore worthless. Or alternatively, it will be a worthwhile train, and therefore act as a barrier to entry.
Making the skill worthwhile to train, and at the same time not be a barrier to entry, is logically impossible, as by definition they are mutually exclusive of each other.
I'd like to ask though, what exactly do we have to play around with in terms of production efficiency? Because, optimally I would like to see Industry confer 4% per level, and Advanced industry confer 3% per level. Overall that would give a 0.68 reduction to time, which is definitely something worth having.
If this is not possible, then I would go with 4% and 2% respectively. Overall that would give a time saving of 0.72. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
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Posted - 2014.07.17 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:The TE bonus only works for those keeping their lines going constantly. In its current form, it amounts to 72 minutes per line, per day. Taken in isolation, at 1% that equals 72 minutes * 11 (number of lines) = 13.2 hours of time saving per day.
If you bump that up to 3% per level, which is what CCP Greyscale seems to be looking at, then that would equal 3.6 hours saved per day per line. Much much better than a tiny job install reduction. If you are sensible you will stick with the PE bonus which is being offered. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
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Posted - 2014.07.18 00:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Summer Isle wrote:The TE bonus only works for those keeping their lines going constantly. In its current form, it amounts to 72 minutes per line, per day. Taken in isolation, at 1% that equals 72 minutes * 11 (number of lines) = 13.2 hours of time saving per day. If you bump that up to 3% per level, which is what CCP Greyscale seems to be looking at, then that would equal 3.6 hours saved per day per line. Much much better than a tiny job install reduction. If you are sensible you will stick with the PE bonus which is being offered. That's only if your lines are going continuously, though. I'm trying to look at things from the other side, as well, as a manufacturer who doesn't have her lines going all the time. If your lines aren't running back-to-back, the actual value of the skill is greatly diminished, and if your jobs don't last long enough, the actual value of the skill quickly approaches zero. I understood your point there. What I was trying to illustrate though was that at 3% TE you would be saving 3.6 hours per line per day. So lets say you put in a 12 hour job, that's now been reduced to by almost 2 hours, meaning it takes only ten hours. Then multiply this by every line you have. That is quite a convenient saving even if you aren't looking to optimise your lines.
Lets take something like a battleship, you want ten runs for your corp. That is going to take 50 hours with no TE, taking the skill in isolation, means that your job is finishing 7.5 hours earlier, meaning your corp can jump into those BS and pvp 7.5 hours earlier than if you didn't have the skill.
Also another point I actually forgot about, but is worth to keep in mind, is the longer your job is running, the higher your installation costs are going to be. So increasing PE will actually give you a reduction in your install costs anyway. This may be minimal, I'd have to do the maths, but combined with the convenience of being able to get more from your production lines, makes the skill much better than a simple reduction from install costs. |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
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Posted - 2014.07.18 09:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:The previous skill was not overpowered but it was required for those who specialized in production. The skill was too powerful. 5% reduction in material requirements per level, and you don't think that was too powerful.
Also you contradict yourself, apparently the skill was only required for those who specialise in production. But then apparently TE is useless except for those that specialise in production...
That voids your entire argument regarding the skill change. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
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Posted - 2014.07.18 11:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:- A general percentage reduction to *all* jobs would (perversely) probably actually be less troublesome to push higher; the 1% is somewhat constrained by our desire not to push build times below copy times, so if we did a skill that affected copy and build equally (along with research, which is clearly a pretty valuable bonus for people researching in the new system), we would probably push it up to the 3-5%/level range.
- Adding some new skills with this skill at 5 as a prerequisite is something we could definitely look into; is this something that would make people feel better about having it at 5? They would then likely be "advanced", optional skills targeted at specific niches and very much not required to compete, but we could probably pick a handful such that everyone has at least one they'd want.
I really like both of these options. The first option would be great, and the second option would make an nice addition although not essential.
I do think this would entail a wider change of all the skills though related to industry and science, things already are overlapping with industry being required for material efficiency for example. If industry and science skills as a whole were more linked that would make a lot of sense.
Perhaps something like this:
Industry = 5% reduction to science and manufacture jobs per level
[Pre req Industry IV]
Manufacture (previously material efficiency) = 4% reduction to manufacture jobs per level Metallurgy = 4% reduction to ME research per level Research = 4% reduction to PE research per level Science = 4% reduction to Copy research per level
This would mean all jobs could get a skill based time multiplier of 0.6x, which would hopefully keep everything equal. Skill progression would make a lot more sense also. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 12:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Or alternatively:
Industry = 4% reduction to science and manufacture jobs per level
[Pre req Industry IV]
Metallurgy = 4% reduction to ME research per level Research = 4% reduction to PE research per level Science = 4% reduction to Copy research per level
[Pre req Industry V] Advanced Industry = 3% reduction to manufacture and science jobs per level
This would confer a larger advantage to science, which seems in line with your goal of keeping copy times under build times. And also would slightly offset the massive increase in time required to get a perfect BPO under the new system.
Manufacture time reduction would be = 0.68x Science time reduction would be = 0.544x |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 13:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Celor Ma'fer wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Or alternatively:
Industry = 4% reduction to science and manufacture jobs per level
[Pre req Industry IV]
Metallurgy = 4% reduction to ME research per level Research = 4% reduction to PE research per level Science = 4% reduction to Copy research per level
[Pre req Industry V] Advanced Industry = 3% reduction to manufacture and science jobs per level
This would confer a larger advantage to science, which seems in line with your goal of keeping copy times under build times. And also would slightly offset the massive increase in time required to get a perfect BPO under the new system.
Manufacture time reduction would be = 0.68x Science time reduction would be = 0.544x Can I just check something out of interest? Are you saying that Science would have a pre req of Industry IV? and What is the reason for lowering the M,R,S skills from 5% to 4%? Yes, under my suggestion Industry would encompass all of the science and manufacture skills. Right now ME research requires Industry, but the others don't, so it doesn't follow much of a logical progression.
Also the reason I reduced them by 1% in that proposal was because higher level skills should give equal or less benefit than the base skill, and also the cumulative bonus may be too high if they are at 5% reduction per level still.
I guess you could keep them at 5% though, but then you would have a science reduction of 0.51x, so am not sure if that is feasible. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
289
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 15:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Celor Ma'fer wrote:OK that all makes sense and I could agree with this idea. One thing that strikes me though is what about all of the skills that Science unlocks, particularly in the first 2 and some of level 3? They are not related to Industry and so would not fit in, would you propose to just remove Science as a Pre Req for those skills? I don't think that would be a problem, as industry is a low ranking skill, and so it would be neglible to get it to level IV, it takes around 20 hours only . And also due to nested skill requirements those who for whatever reason don't have industry to IV, would still have the science skills. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
290
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Posted - 2014.07.18 15:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Celor Ma'fer wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? 3-5% reduction across all Industry jobs, for now. Then a proper solution can be worked out for the next patch I'd agree. Give a bonus across industry and science jobs for now, and then perhaps after the patch look at a more thorough overhaul of the science and manufacturing related skills. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
294
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Posted - 2014.07.19 09:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.
The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system. I disagree with what you suggest here. The main reason is it rewards players who make bad choices, and has minimal effect on those players who make the right choice.
Industry is all about making good choices now, and so to implement a skill which circumvents the folly of someone building in the wrong location seems contrary to the aims of these changes, and will not make for the good gameplay which crius is trying to implement into industry. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
294
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Posted - 2014.07.19 21:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Khiluale Zotakibe wrote:Mhari Dson wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: *stuff*
The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO. CCP employees are real people too you know? Don't use the right that CCP Greyscale has to have his annual break to make personal attacks or question his professionalism. If much ask who is going to be covering for his absence and if that CCP member can get involved in this thread so he/she is up to speed with the issue here. He's just throwing his toys out the pram because he couldn't get a SP refund. |
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